Martial-arts classes, prestige, and specialization

[The Crazy Animal]

I was thinking today, with having prestige and specialization in the game does it make sense to have ninjas/mystics as separate starting classes. What I was thinking was have something akin to early specialization of the classes that let a base martial arts class branch off:

As we know:
Mystic had:
4-8 hp C: 3 W: staff A: robes, kai, dodge, stealth, martial arts
Ninja had:
4-8 hp C:3 W: any A: ninja/robes, stealth dodge, martial arts, lock-picking, tracking, bonus crits

So this is what I was thinking since they have such similar bases:

Base class:
Martial Artist: (names not important at this point)
4-8 hp, C: 3, W: Special, A: Special, Dodge, Small Critical bonus, Base Martial Arts

From here, you offer specialization that would have 2 or 3 major branches each one would have certain gains or losses to the base abilities:

Base Specialization:
Shinobi ? literally is the correct name for a ninja
Gains:  W: Any, Tracking, Lock-picks, Ninja Armor, BS Bonus, Critical Bonus, Stealth

Ronin ? ?was a term for a samurai with out a master?
Gains: W: Sharp Only, A: Light Samurai Armor, Critical Bonus, Dodge Bonus, Sword Techniques
Loses: Partial Weapons Ban ?no blunts?

Mystic
Gains: Kai powers, Advanced Martial Arts, Dodge Bonus, Critical bonus, Hit Magic, Stealth
Loses: Weapons Ban ?restricted to staff/dagger?

Ronin prestige:
Samurai
Changes: A: Heavy Samurai Armor, Advanced Sword Techniques

Shinobi prestige:
??

Mystic prestige:
??

At any rate, it was a passing thought I figured I?d share. Any thoughts on this?

TCA

[grunyo]

yes. goodie, I always wanted some sort of "non-sucky" progression for mystics, etc.

I was always originally a fan of Rogues, so I dislike ninjas since they seem a bit overpowered. But!
yeah. I agree, I think the progression should go along the lines of, say, this:

(also keep in mind I don't know what level scale you're going from..)
Levels 1-10: Martial Artist
Character uses base weaponry, such as daggers and staves, and robe armour. Enhanced critical bonus, dodge, stealth. No tracking, picklocking, etc at this point.

Levels 11-20: Monk
Stays along the path on unarmed combat, your standard martial arts character.

Levels 11-20: Ronin Warrior
Enters school to be trained in weaponized combat. Retains agility and ability to dodge, "kai" spelltree changes

Levels: 21-30: Mystic
Upgrade from Monk; The Path of Righteousness has led the monk to divine power: the power of God is unleashed through this holy warrior. Keeps martial arts, kai, weapon & armour restrictions. "kai" spelltree changes. Exp% increases

Levels 21-30: Bushi
Upgrade from Ronin; Education furthers and the student is trained how to fight effectively while wearing heavier armours (granted chain), "kai" spelltree remains the same. Exp% increases

Levels 21-30: Shinobi
Upgrade from either Monk or Ronin; the student sheds both their education and faith, and enters a secret organization to learn about subterfuge and assassinations. Can utilize kicks and throws in weaponized combat. Exp% increases

Levels 31-40: Sensei
Upgrade from Monk; The Path of Righteousness has led the monk to Enlightenment, and eventually his end-goal. The sensei uses his wisdom as well as his faith to guide him through life, is granted greater divine abilities and retains all unarmed combat perks. Exp% increases further.

Levels 31-40: Samurai
Upgrade from Bushi; Service to the military and education has guided the student to use heavier armours (scale), "kai" spelltree remains the same. Exp% increases further.

Levels 31-40: Assassin
Upgrade from Shinobi: Progression from spy to killer, the Assassin uses her subterfuge and stealth to set traps and poison her target.   Can utilize specialized artillery to knock out opponents (saps, brass knuckles) Exp% increases further.

Levels 41+: Kai
Upgrade from Sensei; The Path of Righteousness has led the monk to Enlightenment, and he is now the Kai: the physical embodiment of the Path. Granted further divine abilities and combat remains the same. Exp% increases yet even more.

Levels 41+: Shogun
Upgrade from Samurai; Service in the military has granted the warrior true honour; That of a military leader. Gains heaviest armours (plate) and "kai" spelltree remains unchanged. Exp% increases yet even more.

Levels 41+: Black Circle Assassin
Upgrade from Assassin: She is as of a shadow, poisons are virtually her lifeblood and she is adept at delivering them with little or no effort. Targets have not even realized they've died until they're in the afterlife, the assassinations are so fast. Exp% increases yet even more.




And that's my thoughts on the subject.

Characters would be given the power to prestige themselves as much or as little as they wanted, but once they started on a path they cannot leave it. You could stay as a Shinobi or Samurai until the endgame and have a lowered Exp table, or realize your "full potential" and progress to the next step.

[The Crazy Animal]

Prestige and specialization should definitely be non-mandatory to the player but there should be also special options along the way for people that decided earlier not to do the base specialization.

I hadn?t really thought about what levels yet to have the branches spawn off since I didn?t know if anyone would go for this mixed class progression tree. You seem to have a good idea of what I mean but I think the major changes need to come first then smaller changes can continue to happen up until the prestige classes. I know DC had planed on having prestige classes happen late in the game around 60th level.

So the scale of something like this would have to happen within the range of say 10-50th

Martial Artists during this pre-split would be using special weapons for the most part with the exception of being able to wield normal staffs/daggers. There?s a large host of weapons that they would be able to wield and would resemble a ninja with a few less skills. I was thinking that stealth shouldn?t be given till the first branching since the Ronin branch shouldn?t really have it.

I would guess, some were around level 10 you would want the first branching.

Base Class Martial Artist <to> Class Tree Shinobi
Base Class Martial Artist <to> Class Tree Monk
Base Class Martial Artist <to> Class Tree Ronin
Base Class Martial Artist <to> Class Tree Martial Artist

Shinobi:
Enters the path of the shadow warrior
gains: tracking, stealth, lock-picks, special armor, dodge bonus, critical bonus, any weapons

Monk:
Enters the path of spiritual warrior
Gains: basic well rounded kai powers, learns some combat hand to hand forms, dodge bonus, critical bonus, limited to staffs/daggers

Ronin:
Enter the path of the noble warrior
Gains: kai powers based on bladed attacks, gains special armor, dodge bonus, critical bonus, and sharp weapons only

Next set of branching should happen some time around level 20-30 there should be a few minor branches in this stage that allow a player to gain a few new abilities.

Class tree Shinobi: Chooses between becoming a basic assassin or learning a Kai like ability
Assassin - focuses on weaponized combat and their stealth attacks
Shadow Dancer: Gains a Kai like ability called Dim-Mak, reduces weapons to maybe 1-handed.
Shinobi ? stays the same

Class Tree Monk: chooses between improving hand to hand or Kai abilities
Monk - focus on hand to hand combat, Light on Kai Powers
Mystic- focus on Kai Powers, light on hand to hand relies on staffs and select weapons.

Class tree Ronin: chooses between the path of a wondering swordsman or a noble samurai
Ronin warrior? focuses light armored, bladed combat, gains basic kai moves all attacks require a sword of some type, increased dodge
Samurai ? gains heavier armor, gains basic kai moves all attacks require a sword of some type,
Ronin ? stays the same

Class tree martial artist
I was thinking maybe have a few types of hand to hand combat for them to learn but haven?t really thought much of them yet as they remain fairly unskilled up till prestige.

From 30-50 there should be some light specialization that gets them ready for prestige classes

After 60th the prestige classing starts:

Ronin warrior might move towards a warlord
Samurai might move towards a shogun
Shinobi Assassin might move towards say the black circle assassin you mentioned
Shinobi Shadow Dancer might move toward something like a Death Walker
Martial artist might be, hybridized with other magic styles or something like that.
Monk might move towards being a Sensei
Mystic might move towards becoming an Oracle
Ronin might move toward becoming a Blade Master
Shinobi might move toward becoming a super ninja of sorts maybe like something out of one of Chang Cheh?s famous ninja movies.


TCA

[DeathCow]

oo.

Well this does change alota the stuff I do have planned, <at least for these 2 classes> I like it almore than what I got. :p

I also needed to do something with mystics cause I hate them.

Works for me...I'll work on something along these lines.

[The Crazy Animal]

I'm glad you like it, if you want to post some of the stuff you had planned prior to this we could take a look and see how we could work it in.. I don't think it should be much of a problem to merge the two ideas together.

I started to get the names of martial arts weapons and other gear together already.. so that shouldn't be a problem. I?m going with the Japanese names for this stuff when I can. Since ninjas/samurai were from japan and the mystics will just have to deal with it.

I was also thinking maybe the hit magic ability could be revamped to something like (rating * level) = hit magic. This way If you wanted to have different levels of hit magic it would auto extrapolate as the character gains level.

What do you currently hate about mystics? If you tell use maybe we can think of some things that might make them better.

[DeathCow]

Yeah well...In all honesty I dont know why mystics have hit magic.  pu ki ju all hit any magical rating.

[The Crazy Animal]

I think it was probably done for them so when they backstab they can hit those magic monsters.

[The Crazy Animal]

More title and name stuff:

Stuff for class names:
Sohei ? warrior monk "I would use this to replace the mystics class title"
Yamabushi - another type of warrior monk

Mahotsukai - Conjuror, magician, wizard type person "would be a good title for the Dim-mak class
Ex Shinobi Mahotsukai would be a ninja wizard

Related terms for Mahotsukai:

Jujutsu - magic/sorcery/incantation
Genjutsu - magic/witchcraft
Kekkai - Spiritual or magical barrier
Kijutsu or majikku - magic
Mahou - magic/witchcraft/sorcery
Maryoku - magical power/charm
Youjutsusha - magician/sorcerer/sorceress
Youjutsu - black magic/black art/witchcraft/sorcery
Majutsushi - magician/conjurer
Majutsu - black magic or sorcery

Prestige classes:
Ji-zamurai? ? Rural Samurai lords- might be good one for ronin prestige
Sama- King or lord "ex. Shinobi Sama would be ninja lord."
Kensei - "Sword saint/spirit" refrence to a greatly skilled swordsmen

Metsuke - was a intelligence officer for the shogun. it might be a good way of blending shinobi into the plot of the Samurai. dual title for prestige would be "Shinobi Metsuke."


Meijin - Master ?translation refers to level of mastery aka brilliant person?
"ex. Shinobi Chi-meijin - would be ninja eath-master "might be good for the super-ninja I was talking about"

Japanese Element names:
Chi - Earth
Ka - Fire
Ku - Celestial
Sui - Water

Class titles for martial artists:
Sempai - honorory instructor
Sensei - Instructor
Renshi - Adcanced Instructor
Kyoshi - Master Instructor
Hanshi - Senior Instructor

Class titles and or related info for Shinobi:
Jonin -? leader
Chunin - sub-leader
Genin -? ?basic operative
Nukenin - Renegade Shinobi

Class titles and or related info for Samurai:
Daimyo - Powerful ruler of a Samurai clan or house.
Go-karo - Top-ranking samurai official in service to a daimyo
Shikken - Regent for the shogun
Rensho - Assistant to the shikken
Roju - elder leader only surpassed in power by a Shogun
Wakadoshiyori - junior elders that control the Hatamotos
Hatamoto ? a Samurai vassal or official guard of a shogun
Gokenin - A lower class of Hatamoto that didn't have direct access to the shogun


I'll add some more later...

Edits: fixing some of the spellings to match the japanese words better.

TCA

[grunyo]

keep in mind you don't want to get bogged down with too many options.

If you can subclass and seperate and divide and specialize too much, you'll blow it elsewhere.

[The Crazy Animal]

True complex isn't always the way to go but we do need to make sure that the first play and the replay are both enjoyable. We have to also remember that all of the classes and possibly races are going to have their own super forms or sub divisions so no matter how you look at it the options are going to end up being large. I'm hoping that there will be a few subclasses that overlap and or crossover between classes and a few that just go their own ways. This way similar classes can either merge or seperate further from each other.

Overlaps in subclasses reduce complexity for example:
A Ronin or a Samurai might become a Kensei
If a Shinobi becomes a Nukenin they might also have the chance to become a Kensei
"Since each of these are fighter type classes in a single theme they should be compatable for a single end class."

Single class twist:
Samurai and Ji-zamurai are the same type of class the only difference is one is military one isn't. Something like this would only really effect the type of quests a character gets.

Crossover prestige classes:
Yamabushi might be a good crossover between martial artist and a priestly class maybe missionary.
Shinobi Mahotsukai might be a good crossover for ninja and a gypsy if were going that route.
"Things like this allow the game have a more seamless feel to it."

However most of the stuff I mentioned in my last post are just japanese words for related stuff I thought should be availible for general content use.

Like a Ronin might have to go talk to "Jet Calee Go-karo" of the Orocu Clan to start a quest to become a Samurai. At the same time Go-karo might be a level title for Samurai..

At any rate no matter how much junk I post DC has the wonderful job of filtering my jibber jabber before it gets near the core game content.

TCA